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 England: Gerrard vs Lampard

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PostSubject: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:27 pm

I thought this was an interesting read but left me no closer to deciding whether we would be best with Gerrard, or Lampard or both. No doubt we would be best if they could both play together, but can they? Ever?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/7656414.stm
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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:05 pm

He should stick with Frank.

He is our best player and after the England manager saw his performance against Villa, I am sure he fully understands that too.

I hope the manager has the balls to drop Gerrard to the bench and educate the fools up n down the country who believe he is a "must" in the national team.

What a Face

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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:57 pm

I dont think Lampard is our best player, and I'm fairly sure I'm not alone in having that opinion, nor are you for that matter - and thats all it is.
However, with Gerrard and Lampard both playing well for their respective clubs, and Lampard even more so, add to that the Croatia game, where once the space was avilable, Lampard really stood out, I think Lampard should play in the central mifield role for now, backed up by a genuine holding player. I think it's time England manager's stopped thinking that because of his ability he should be able to fill in anywhere, so we can accomdate both Lampard and Gerrard in the starting XI. The only other role Gerrard should be given is a free role on the right hand side where he can come in, however the only problem with that is the imbalance it causes with no decent right fullback. Gerrard has to wait his turn now, and if it doesnt come, but England are successful then who really cares?
England only need 1 central midfielder who plays an attacking role, and on current form, Lampard deserves his place there more than Gerrard - that's not to say Gerrard isnt better than him (this is where most of us miss the point when it comes to following England), but on current form, and from England's last game, there is no need to change style, tactics or mentality just to accomodate another player - no matt how good he is.
Lampard and Gerrard cant play together, but just because both are so good, and the fact that Gerrard can do a half decent job anywhere else on the pitch is no real reason to bring him in.
That said, I fully expect Gerrard to start on Saturday, whether it be on the left, right, holding position or in goal.


England With Gerrard With Lampard With both of them
Games --------21--------- 16--------- 46
Wins ----------16--------- 7---------- 28
Draws ---------3---------- 2---------- 12
Losses --------2--------- --7---------- 6
Goals for-- ---45--------- -22--------- 91
Win % -------76.1%----- 43.75%------60.8%
Goals/game --2.14-------- 1.38------- 1.98


Last edited by huzup on Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:18 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : table added...)
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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:25 pm

I don't think you can play the two of them together in central midfield against better opposition, you get away with it with weaker teams but not against the top teams that all have good midfielders. Against the best teams you need a holding midfielder. Both Gerrard and Lampard are box to box players who are better going forward, but that only works if you have someone staying at home doing the defending.

So who starts and who is on the bench. I think it should be down to form, whoever is playing the best at the moment. It is easy when it is obvious one of them is playing at the top of his game,and right now that points to Lampard. Where it gets difficult is when there is not much to choose in their form, that is where Capello has to earn his money and make the tough decisions. However, he hasn't shown me yet, that he can make the tough decisions.

One bearing on the decision maybe who plays best with the holding midfielder. Gerrard and Barry seem to have a good understanding,but Lampard and Barry worked well against Croatia. I still think that Barry is only in the team because Hargreaves is injured. So if Hargreaves gets over his injury patch and makes the holding midfield position his own, it may come down to who works better with Hargreaves.

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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:29 pm

is Lampard a box to box midfielder or halfway line to box?
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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:36 pm

huzup wrote:
is Lampard a box to box midfielder or halfway line to box?

If you want to spit hairs. They are probably both closer to halfway line to box players, or 3/4 line to box.

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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:48 pm

Frank with Hargreaves behind him sounds perfect to me.

I might add Frank has no problem playing with Ballack.

Gerrard lacks disipline when he plays with Frank - he gets in the bloody way all the time.

You only have to see Franks performance against Germany and Croatia to see he is much better without Gerrard getting in the way.

By the way - all these stats BBC are putting out about Gerrard and Barry playing together.

Might I point out Barry played in every Euro game and Gerrard in far more than Frank and we failed to make the finals.

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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:52 pm

huzup wrote:
is Lampard a box to box midfielder or halfway line to box?

Frank is the complete midfielder - goal line to bloody goal line!

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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:18 pm

TickTok wrote:


Frank is the complete midfielder - goal line to bloody goal line!
I dont see that he does much defending. Not that he needs to for Chelsea. On form he should stay in and Gerrard will be out but both will play on Saturday I would have thought. It takes a big manager to leave him out, but also, the biggest manager will accomodate them together for the first time successfully.

Tick makes a good point. Ballack is an attacking midfielder and he and Lampard compliment each other perfectly. Gerrard is a one and only man I feel. Always wants the ball, always has to be in the right place. You either build a side around Gerrard like Liverpool, or you don't play Gerrard. This is not at all a dig at the player because he wears his heart on his sleeve, he is just slightly too indisciplined.
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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:44 pm

Chelsea has more and better options that Capello has with England. Chelsea can play Lampard and Ballack together or could have played Lampard and Gerrard together if he had went there. Chelsea when playing Lampard and Ballack have always had Makelele or Essien playing behind them to take care of the defensive duties. The main reason they can do this is because of Drogba who can play up front on his own and be successful doing it. England doesn't have anyone like Drogba and has to play two up front so there is one less position in midfield.

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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:09 pm

Why is it that Gerrard lacks the dicipline and gets in Franks way? Why not the other way around? So Frank does have the dicipline? Sorry but complete bollocks unless you know what roles the manager gave to these guys. They're both shit anyway, and should be replaced with Danny Murphy Very Happy .....and yes I'm joking. It's funny who the anti Gerrard campaigner are. One who's a Chelsea fan, who is obviously going to go for Frank and the other's a Man U supporter who constantly let's his hatred for Liverpool cloud his judgement.
Both players are exceptional for their club and their managers wouldn't swap them for anyone else. Those are facts no-one can deny. I don't care which of them gets dropped just as long as whoever plays gets to play in the position that they exel for their respective clubs. For fuck sake Capello pick a team not individuals!!! No one gives a shit who gets dropped if you start winning something...and with a x million salary you'd think you'd be able to do that.

For tick:
I go to the butcher every Saturday for me home made sausages, a bit of steak and other things, and it turns out he supports Chelsea. He said he doesn't rate Frank and would rather have Gerrard. I was so shocked it was just like being in church and the vicar calling you a c*nt for crossing yourself. After the shock it made me laugh and my thoughts immediately went to you.
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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:53 pm

red makes a good point with regards to Lampard and Ballack in comparison to Lampard and Gerrard because Chelsea have had Makelele and Essien, England have no one to play that role. (This subject as a whole has been done to death, and many a times I have said that [I think] the only way these 2 could play their preferred role would be in a 5 man midfield, but no ones tried it.)
In terms of how each plays, Gerrard is most definitely a box-to-box midfielder, and there is a defensive part to his game which makes him the complete midfielder. Abcdef makes a good point in mentioning Gerrard's indiscipline (pro Gerrard fans will say freedom rather than that) and how you either build a team around Gerrard (which has been done but Rafa is changing this), or (as has been for England) you play him in any other position, however I would like to add that this season for Liverpool, Benitez has managed to get this out of him by restricting him to central midfield, without the option of roaming - Gerrard talked about this in a couple of interviews, and said he is glad that Benitez has done this, and feels Liverpool are benefitting more with him in this role and he is improving too.
It's too late to start building a new England team around Gerrard, even if this was Capello's first game but looking back in hindsight, who knows what would have happened if any England manager had tried that (whether that player was Gerrard or Lampard [still possible with Rooney though] ). To be honest, it's too big a risk to take on an international stage as games are so far apart.
Tick - to give you a more detailed breakdown of the Euro qualifiers
Individual results
Gerrard: Played 10, Won 7, Drawn 1, Lost 2
Lampard: Played 7, Won 3 (1 substitute performance), 1 draw, Loss 3 (1 substitute performance)
When they played together (where both started)
Played 6, Won 3, Drawn 2, Lost 1

Where people get this idea Barry played in every Euro game is WRONG - he only played 5 games - check the stats for yourself - what the stats should say is, Barry played for England in all competitive games bar 1 in the 2007 calendar year
His stats are - played 5, won 3 lost 2.
Incidentally - all 5 were played with Gerrard so the stats for when they both started is the same.
Finally - the stats for when all three started together is...
Played 1, lost 1 - and thats the Croatia game where Barry was taken off at the beginning of the second half.

Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics


Last edited by huzup on Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:10 pm

simpleman wrote:
.Why is it that Gerrard lacks the dicipline and gets in Franks way? Why not the other way around? So Frank does have the dicipline? Sorry but complete bollocks unless you know what roles the manager gave to these guys. They're both shit anyway, and should be replaced with Danny Murphy .....and yes I'm joking. It's funny who the anti Gerrard campaigner are. One who's a Chelsea fan, who is obviously going to go for Frank and the other's a Man U supporter who constantly let's his hatred for Liverpool cloud his judgement.
Both players are exceptional for their club and their managers wouldn't swap them for anyone else. Those are facts no-one can deny. I don't care which of them gets dropped just as long as whoever plays gets to play in the position that they exel for their respective clubs. For fuck sake Capello pick a team not individuals!!! No one gives a shit who gets dropped if you start winning something...and with a x million salary you'd think you'd be able to do that.

Well I know McClaren was a complete fool, but I am sure the tactics didnt involve - Everytime Frank runs forward, you block his run of Steven and make a complete hash of the move.

You make a fair case I am a Chelsea fan and will side with Frank - but unlike the rest of the country I do not act like a lamb n follow what the pundits say on the telly.

All this crap about Gerrard has been forced upon us - then we have the Croatia game and Frank gets all the space to himself.

Tell me a game when Gerrard has played like that for England against that standard of country?

I think Gerrard is a great player for Liverpool ..... cause compared to the other players he stands out.

If he had kept his word and signed for Chelsea he would have become a smaller fish in a much higher standard squad and we wouldnt have all this over rating stuff about him.

To be completly honest thou - Id rather Frank sit on the bench for both games and come home fighting fit for Chelsea!

simpleman wrote:
.

For tick:
I go to the butcher every Saturday for me home made sausages, a bit of steak and other things, and it turns out he supports Chelsea. He said he doesn't rate Frank and would rather have Gerrard. I was so shocked it was just like being in church and the vicar calling you a c*nt for crossing yourself. After the shock it made me laugh and my thoughts immediately went to you.

Remember - you was crossing his palm with silver for Sauages that have a cost to make of a few pence per skin.

I done a bit of sales myself - always fill the customer up with whatever he wants to hear - no matter how big the bulls*** Wink

I trust you will be back there this weekend Smile

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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:19 pm

huzup wrote:

Where people get this idea Barry played in every Euro game is WRONG - he only played 5 games - check the stats for yourself - what the stats should say is, Barry played for England in all competitive games bar 1 in the 2007 calendar year

I stand corrected on Barry Exclamation

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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:30 pm

simpleman wrote:
and the other's a Man U supporter who constantly let's his hatred for Liverpool cloud his judgement.
Haha. Its funny, Tick says the same thing about Chelsea. So its obviously not true since I am backing the Chelsea player. I just call it as I see it. And thats the way it is.
You shouldnt just use that as your trump card cos its pretty damn poor. Perhaps you are only backing Gerrard because your hatred of Chelsea is blocking your judgement. And before you say you dont hate Chelsea, neither do I, nor do I hate Liverpool.
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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:23 am

abcdef wrote:
simpleman wrote:
and the other's a Man U supporter who constantly let's his hatred for Liverpool cloud his judgement.
Haha. Its funny, Tick says the same thing about Chelsea. So its obviously not true since I am backing the Chelsea player. I just call it as I see it. And thats the way it is.
You shouldnt just use that as your trump card cos its pretty damn poor. Perhaps you are only backing Gerrard because your hatred of Chelsea is blocking your judgement. And before you say you dont hate Chelsea, neither do I, nor do I hate Liverpool.
Re-read what I said. I don't back either for a solitary role for England.
So if you don't hate Liverpool how can you be a real Man U fan? Laughing
...and you've been biaised in several comments previously about anything to do with Liverpool, I've just not had the time or inclination to pull you up on it before. If you want I'll go through all yours posts and demonstrate for you...but then whats the point.
We all have our opinions and I guess thats the attraction of a multi fan based forum.
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PostSubject: Re: England: Gerrard vs Lampard   Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:24 pm

well this is what Fabio Capello has to say on Gerrard and his possible role tomorrow
CAPELLO: I'LL GET BEST OUT OF GERRARD
"I think Steven Gerrard is a fantastic player," said Capello yesterday. "For tomorrow, I think you will see Gerrard in a very important position on the field, his long-term position.

"Of course, it depends on the games and the opponents, and he can play in two or three positions. But I think I know the best position for Gerrard and you will see tomorrow.

"I didn't read about him talking about not playing in his favourite position, but he's always played for me as a midfielder. I hope that three of these five games were with me!

"I always play him where I think it's better for him. Throughout my career, my style is to put the players in the best position for them to play better and at 100% in the team.

"He has to play like when he plays with Liverpool. He's one of the 11 players on the pitch. We win and we lose together, always.

"He's an important player, for sure, but he's only one of the 11."
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